such alteration has occurred as materially to vary the situation of the Bank in this respect. On this view of the present state of the important question referred to them, the committee have agreed to report it to the House as their opinion, that it is necessary to continue and confirm the measures already taken, for such time, and under such limitations and restrictions, and with such power of discontinuing the same as to the wisdom of parliament may seem expedient." their hands, and they afterwards fix the price of the market upon these cattle; the consequence of which is, the jobbers have the whole control of the market in their own hands. By these practices enormous sums of money are made by these jobbers, insomuch that one of the witnesses examined before the committee, stated, that one of these jobbers cleared the sum of 2,000l. in 1795, for his share of jobbing in oxen.. Enormous sums were made by the same practices by the jobbing in sheep. All that he had hitherto stated referred only to cattle fit for the London market: Mr. Mainwaring's Bill for preventing but this was not all, for these jobbers buy the Forestalling &c.of Live Cattle.] March up the lean cattle all over the country, 6. Mr. Mainwaring said, that, in pursu- take them to graziers to be fed, and afterance of the notice he had given, it now be- wards set their own price upon them, till came his duty to state to the House some they get at last the whole of the cattle facts which he believed would call for a of the country out of the hands of the regulation in the management of the sale farmers; and in the instances of the of live cattle, which was considered the lean cattle, the jobbers get a double profit, principal cause of the high price of provi- for the cattle pass twice through their sions. Late in the last session, a petition hands.-Another subject of grievous comwas presented to that House by a body of plaint was, that of regrating in the Smith. men calling themselves "Cutting Butch-field market. A number of persons go ers," complaining of great hardships which they endured in consequence of the practice of engrossing, forestalling, and regrating live cattle, which, they said, were the principal cause of the high price of provisions. The House referred that subject to a committee. That committee sat for some time to examine into the allegations of the petition, and a number of witnesses were examined, after which the committee made a Report, and stated the substance of the evidence which was given to them together with some observations thereon. On account of the lateness of the session, no farther proceedings were had upon this subject. It appeared by that report, that there is a class of persons who are called jobbers, who make it a business to go about the country to the farmers, and to buy up immense quantities of large cattle, which are generally ready for the supply of the metropolis. When the jobber has got the cattle out of the hands of the grazier, they are jobbed again, and are sold from one to the other of these jobbers three or four times over before they fairly come to the London market, and thus these jobbers at last send them to the London market, with a fixed price upon them, contrary to the interest of the grazier, as well as the consumer; for the grazier sells them at the price which they will fetch of the jobber: but the jobbers by this practice get all the live cattle into to this market early, and buy up the cattle there, and merely lead them across the market, and then sell them singly to the butchers, by which, in the course of half an hour, they make enormous profits, and thereby enhance the price prodigiously. Another grievous subject of complaint was that of forestalling. This was the practice of what is called the carcass butcher. He goes ten or twenty miles into the country to meet the great dealers in cattle as they are coming to London, and sometimes buys up one half of the cattle intended for market; but they never come to market alive; they are sent to the private slaughter-houses of these carcass butchers; by this the Smithfield market often appears thin of live cattle, by which means again there is an apparent, though no real scarcity; the consequence of which is, the high price of butchers meat. These were inconveniencies which required remedies. It was clear from this Report, that the metropolis might be well supplied but for the prac tices to which he had alluded; and that when the market appeared thin of cattle, that thinness has been owing to the artifices of these men. He believed, indeed, that sometimes cattle were sent to market much younger than they ought to be for sale there; but this was not the question now to be considered. The question now was, whether there were any practices that necessarily enhance the price of provisions? And whether these practices were improper? If the House thought there were such practices, they ought to devise some means to stop them. Some legislative interference ought, in his opinion, to take place. He was aware that he might be told that he had stated only that there were engrossing, forestalling and regrating. and that there are laws in existence against such practices. He allowed that to be, in a great measure, true; but then the mode of carrying such laws into execution was attended with so much difficulty, delay, and perplexity, that no individual could be expected to enforce them. He knew the House would be cautious in coming to any measure that might seem to lay restrictions upon trade, and that all speculations in trade should be left to find their own level. He subscribed to that doctrine in a general way; but when men by artifices contrived to enhance the price of common food, he conceived it to be the duty of that House to adopt measures by which the price of such articles should be kept as low as possible; for if a man doomed to subsist by honest industry, could not support himself, he must either become a burthen upon the public, or he must starve; and while we wished to support our trade, we ought not to forget that these very labourers are the pillars on which the whole of our prosperity rests; that their labour is the foundation of our trade and commerce. It is therefore the interest, as well as the duty of parliament, to provide for labourers as well as they could. He then moved, "That leave be given to bring in a bill for the more effectually preventing the Forestalling, Regrating, and Engrossing of Live Cattle." Alderman Combe conceived that some farther regulations were necessary, and, as far as he could judge, those regulations would not check any of the fair advantages of commerce. Leave was given to bring in the bill. Debate in the Lords on appointing a Committee of Secrecy to inquire into the Causes of the Order of Council for the Stoppage of Cash Payments at the Bank.] March 6. The Duke of Bedford rose to move for a select committee to inquire into the causes which produced the Order of Council of the 26th of February last. His grace said, that from the time of issuing that fatal order to the present moment, he had given it the most attentive consideration, and in every possible view of it, he saw it pregnant with the most pernicious conse quences. This minute of council might have been necessary, and it might be necessary to continue it; but still the causes which produced it ought to be thoroughly investigated; for he was certain, if something effectual was not speedily done in the business, the continuance of the bank, in its present state, must prove the destruction of the country. The next point was with regard to the nature of the committee to which such inquiry should be submitted. He objected to a committee of the whole House, as being too inconvenient a mode to be adopted in a matter so important as this. He also thought a committee of secrecy by no means likely to be attended with those advantages which might be expected from a select committee. The necessity of inquiry was so evident, that he had not a doubt of the House agreeing with him, in whatever point of view they considered the subject. The noble duke then moved, "That a select committee of fifteen peers be appointed to inquire into the causes which produced the Order of Council of the 26th of February." Lord Grenville said, he did not rise for the purpose of opposing the general principle of inquiry recommended by the noble duke, but he differed from him in some of the conclusions he had drawn. He thought, that whatever might be the result of the inquiries of a committee, the opinion of the House must still remain the same with respect to the necessity for the order. He maintained, that the subject of the temporary difficulties which had made that order necessary, was wholly unconnected with the subject of finance. There might be in the affairs of any banking company temporary embarrassments, with regard to the immediate want of circulating medium, without such derangement in the least operating to the disparagement of the general wealth of the company. Wealth did not consist in the quantity of the circulating medium only: it was well known that there were many branches of commerce which required a much larger quantity of circulating medium to carry them on than others. He did not differ as to the propriety of the inquiry, but if it was to be gone into, be should move, that the word "secret" be substituted for the word "select." The Duke of Norfolk had no objection to a secret committee if it was openly D mar The House divided: for the appointment of the committee by ballot, 47; against it, 8. appointed; but he objected to the mode of choosing a committee by ballot, because it was well known that such committees were composed of the minister's friends. In the last committee, there were no fewer than three cabinet ministers, who were the very persons who signed the order of council in question, and two of whom were near relations of the minister. When inquiries were conducted in such a way it was impossible' the country could be satisfied. A Secret Committee was then agreed to. Lord Grenville next moved, That the Committee be chosen by ballot. The Duke of Bedford said, that with respect to a ballot, whatever it might have been in the days of our ancestors, nothing could be more evident, than that, as at present practised, it was a mode by which it was in the power of ministers to nominate whoever they pleased. It was notorious that the last committee was composed of those very persons whose conduct was implicated in the inquiry. Probably if the inquiry had been impartially entered upon, circumstances might have come to light, by which it would have appeared that the conduct of administration in issuing the order of council was ill advised; or, at least, if the exigency of the moment required it, that they had reduced themselves to that necessity, by their previous misconduct. But how could it be expected that any thing of the kind could come to the knowledge of their lordships, if the committee was to be composed of the very men whose mal-administration was the subject of inquiry? He was therefore of opinion, that the committee should be openly nominated, and concluded by making a motion to that effect. Lord Grenville said, that the committee to be ballotted for was not to inquire into the conduct of ministers, but into the situation of the Bank of England. Ever since that House had been a chamber of parliament, he did not believe that there on had been a committee of fifteen for a similar purpose, chosen by nomination from red different parts of the House. Such a cheme presented great confusion. On an event like the present they must be madmen who would insist that the committee ought to consist of fifteen persons avowbeedly adverse to government. Indeed, he believed, there would be some difficulty in finding fifteen of that description within those walls. He f the ction eny [VOL. XXXIII.] Debate in the Commons on the Bank Restriction Bill.] March 9. Previously to the order of the day being read, for taking the Reports of the Secret Committee into consideration, Mr. Sheridan begged leave to offer a few observations upon the said reports. The first measure which he thought necessary was, to endeavour to prevent the impressions which the reports might have upon the public opinion respecting the situation of the Bank, because, according to those reports, the government was debtor to the Bank in various sums, independent of eleven millions, which the committee reckoned as forming so much of the capital stock of the Bank, when in fact that eleven millions was no debt at all. Instead of being included in the capital stock of the Bank as a debt, it should have been reckoned what it really is, as an annuity of 330,000l. per annum, that sum being the stipulated interest for the other, during a certain term of years. If the eleven million actually belonged to the effects of the Bank, and was available at any time, that sum might be made applicable in any exigency, to any demand which might occur; but that could not be called a debt where there were no means of claiming the sum so reckoned. Government might pay off that sum if it were so inclined; but it was improbable it would do so, nor was it at present very probable that government would pay it off in 1814, that being the expiration of the 18 years for which it was obtained, when it could retain the use of it, for so small an interest as 3 per cent. There was no power in the Bank to compel the payment of this money at any périod, and the payment of it rested solely on the option of government. The Bank, as a corporation, was merely a vehicle for managing the national debt, and so long as that debt existed, the Bank would exist also. It would be a corporation to the end of time, if the national debt, remained unpaid. So far, then, it was evident, that the eleven millions did not form a part of the capital stock of the Bank; and this was an instance, he would not say of the inaccuracy or design to misrepresent to the committee, but of a statement, in consequence of which a sort of impression had gone abroad, as if that money were [D] immediately applicable to any object of relief. The inquiry then would be, of what effects the seventeen millions are composed which are to defray the outstanding engagements of the Bank. They consist of course, of cash in hand, of other disposeable securities, and of bills which the Bank has discounted. It appeared by the paper on the table, that government, owed 9,964,413l. to the Bank which remained as part of their assets, and the permanent securities towards defraying the 13,770,000l. of outstanding demands upon it. Now, what had been the conduct of government in this affair, but the most extraordinary that ever occurred? Let any gentleman take a supposeable case of individuals acting in the same way, and see how it would stand. If a merchant, for instance, had assets in bonds, merchandize, discounts, and other disposeable commodities, to the value of 17,000l. out of which he owed to various creditors 13,000l., but had on the per contra side of his account 10,000/ due to him by one man, which was within 3,000l. of the extent of his engagements, would not that merchant think it very extraordinary conduct in that man, if he should say, "Sir, I understand that your affairs are in a ticklish way, let me make an inquiry into them, and if upon a strict examination, I discover, that you have wherewithal in due time to extricate yourself from your difficulties, and discharge your debts, I will not say that I may not guarantee them for you." Yet, however absurd and extraordinary such a mode of proceeding might appear, such had actually been the mode of proceeding between the government and the Bank. To go back to the comparison the gentleman would say, "Why do you not pay me the money you owe me before you make such a request, and then I may be able to satisfy every demand without your interference." Such should have been the conduct of the directors upon the present occasion. He would not say that the government had been highly criminal, and that the directors had committed great errors. He might be blamed at such a crisis for speaking so plainly; but plain dealing was now the only method to recover public credit. The next inquiry was, whether the Bank had declined all at once, or suffered a gradual decrease; and if the latter were the case, how happened it that the fatal effects which ensued were not foreseen, nor measures taken to prevent : them? About four years ago the Bank increased their dividends to 7 per cent., which indicated a growing prosperity and, granting that to be the case, could they have declined all at once? Was the House and the public to imagine, when the Bank undertook to subscribe one million last year towards the loyalty loan of 18 millions, that they were then suffering a gradual decrease? Because if they were, how happened it that government did not take any one measure to pay the debt which it owed to the Bank, to prevent the inconveniencies which it has lately been subjected to, but on the con trary took an additional sum of one mil lion? It appeared as if it had been the plan of government to reduce the Bank to such a situation; and nothing short of infatuation on the part of the Bank could have induced the directors to submit to it. What then, it may be said, ought not the directors of the Bank to lend assistance to government or to individuals, in cases of temporary diffi culty and on permanent securities? Un doubtedly, if they can do so they ought but let them first recollect that they ar not the trustees of the public, nor of go vernment funds, but the trustees of Bank proprietors, of widows and of orphans who, if they went blindly on in lending unlimited assistance must eventually b ruined. Here then it might be asked what measures did government pursue, to enable the Bank to pay its outstanding engagements? It would naturally be sup posed that something was done, beside the prohibition of paying in specie. I does not appear, however, that any thing was done to avoid the measures which government adopted. Had the Bank no the means to do it then? Certainly the had; for their sufficiency has been de clared. Did the Bank call in any of th debts which were due to them? Did i narrow its discounts? Did it dispose o any of its disposeable effects? One o these, if not all, would have been the pla of a merchant to retrieve himself in similar situation; and yet not one of thes measures did the Bank adopt. Upo these grounds, he would to-morrow mov that immediate steps be taken to pay money advanced by the directors of the Bank to government. th The order of the day for taking th Reports of the Secret Committee [s p. 26] into consideration, and the sa Reports being read, Mr. Fox, on accou of the convenience of speaking more than once, moved, That the House should resolve itself into a committee to consider of the said Reports. The motion was agreed to. The Speaker left the chair, and Mr. Douglas having taken the chair of the Committee, owing to the public. Such was the true description of the question, and in that view alone ought it to be considered: whereas, the question had been considered, not with respect to the means of the bank, and the manner in which the bank was to answer to their creditors; but how far it Mr. Pitt said, that the facts contained had or had not carried on an advantageous in the report were to be considered in a trade. The House had nothing to do with twofold point of view; first, as relating to the question of the internal economy of the general state of the funds of the bank, the bank: that had always been left to and the propriety of the order in council; their own decision; but it did, in point of second, with regard to the necessity of fact, appear upon the report, that the confirming and continuing that order. bank was possessed of substance far exWith respect to the first, such had been ceeding the demands of the public, and the universal impression made by the state- that the individuals composing the corpoment in the report of the funds of the ration would have a far greater sum to dibank, that there did not exist a question of vide, if such a division of property was to their sufficiency and solidity. He believed take place, than they had originally emthe general impression was such, that not barked; and therefore, with regard to the a doubt was entertained with regard to the question of ultimate security, there was not ultimate security of the bank; and until the least doubt upon that head, because that day, in the speech of an hon. gentle- of the necessity of preventing the payman, he had never heard any thing stated, ment in specie for a limited time. It had that in the smallest degree questioned the been stated, that the debt due from gotruth of the statement contained in the re-vernment to the bank, was a debt not deport. There had been some observations mandable till a given day, and only bearmade by the same hon. gentleman, toing an interest of 3 per cent. Still, howwhich he should think it necessary to ad- ever, their inability to obtain that debt vert. It had been stated, that the money from government was no proof that they due from the public to the Bank of England could not conduct their affairs independent was not to be considered in the same point of it; for, supposing the bank was in such of view as the capital of any other com- a situation, that they could not carry on pany embarked in trade. In answer to business, the public would not suffer them that he would observe, that the security to continue any longer in possession of of a certain number of traders, whether a that monopoly which gave them the privicorporation or not, consisted not only of lege of conducting the public pecuniary the original sum embarked, but also of concerns; but it was clear that the monowhatever profit had been produced in the poly could not be withdrawn, without the course of time; and to deny that such ori-public becoming collectively responsible ginal property embarked, if still unim- to each individual; therefore, the debt of paired, whether it was secured as part of eleven millions to the public, equal to their outstanding debt or not, was not part which the government was indebted to the of their capital, was to deny every princi- bank, would put the public exactly in the ple on which every mercantile account was same situation in the event of the insolever constructed. He had thought it ne-vency of the bank, as if it had been paid to cessary to make that consideration a part them; but, added to that, the public had of the question upon this occasion. This for the payment of the debts due from was a question which had for its object the the bank, the parliamentary faith of the ultimate security of the funds of the bank, kingdom, and the security of the whole and not whether the demands against it property of the country. It therefore, were to be paid at a particular day or seemed, that, if the object was only to hour. It was a question with reference to consider the ultimate solidity of the bank, the solvency and solid capital of the bank. the committee could not have done their It was not a question, whether the bank duty, if they had not included this debt contained actual specie equal to those de- with every other debt due to the bank, mands; but whether they had good debts and particularly considering it as one due to them, or property of any other de- which stood on the best security the great scription, which might be finally available power of the community could give. It to them in the liquidation of the debts was not his intention to make any proposal + |