Sir Anthony Abdy:

Sir, I have seen the petition for the county of Surry, which that gentleman has the honour to represent; and I do declare, in the face of that gentleman, it is signed by a very great majority of the freeholders, many of them persons of great property, and formerly his zealous friends. As to the justices of the peace, it may perhaps be true, that the petition was not signed by more than 70 in 600: they may have their private reasons for withholding their assent to a measure which involves a complaint; but I believe there are few, who, if they were drawing the character of a good and respectable man, would think it could be heightened by adding that he was a justice of the peace, either for Surry or Middlesex. As to the motion, which the hon. gentleman says makes him so happy, he may be assured that it is one of the works, which, whenever he shall rest from his labours, will be sure to follow him.

Mr. George Onslow :

Many of my constituents, when they signed the petition, I speak from certain knowledge, knew no more what they were about than this table, [laying his hand upon the table before him] and I never will consent to the House of Commons joining with the people against the House of Commons.

Mr. Howard:

Sir; the compliment which the hon. gentleman has paid to the freeholders of the county of Surry, will probably be remembered. It happens, however, that I know many of them; and I think that, in general, they are sensible men. If the hon. gentleman had said that they did not know what they did when they chose him for their representative, his assertion would probably have found more credit.

Mr. Rigby:

Sir; notwithstanding all that has been said about grievances, complaints and petitions, I am persuaded that the people in general are content and quiet: they feel no grievances, they form no apprehensions; and if it were not for petition-hunters, who travel from North to South, and from East to West, who tell them there are grievances which they do not feel, and apprehensions which they do not conceive, I am sure the name of a petition would

never have been heard in more than three counties throughout the kingdom. If it were not for the officious diligence of these incendiaries, how is it possible that the farmers and weavers in Yorkshire and Cumberland, should know, or take an interest in the Middlesex election of representatives in parliament. It is impossible, that of themselves, they could ever think even of asking a question upon the subject; but a few factious and discontented people, who have no way of making themselves of consequence but by distressing government, go round the country; meetings are advertised, speeches made, the parliament abused, government vilified, and the people inflamed; a petition ready drawn up is produced and read, and before the ferment subsides, it is hawked about from one town to another, till a sufficient number of names are collected to make a shew, and then it is passed for the sense and act of the people. To pretend that any attention is due to petitions thus fraudulently obtained, is an insult upon common sense. But supposing that a majority of freeholders had signed these petitions, without influence and solicitation, the majority, even of this class, is no better than an ignorant multitude, whom it is absurd, in the highest degree, to suppose capable of deciding upon a question, about which the best lawyers, and the ablest men in this House, are still divided. Let the infamous abettors of sedition blush at their appeal to such a tribunal. If the authority of this House is to be called in question by people of this class, if we suffer our proceedings to be controuled and directed by popular clamour, excited by factious invective and misrepresentation, we must bid adieu to all government by law, and depend for protection upon the caprice of the multitude. As this would

certainly be the greatest evil that can befal us, and as I think the Amendment tends directly to bring it on, I shall give my vote against it.

Sir George Saville:

Sir; I have been highly entertained by the picture which the hon. gentleman has been pleased to draw of those, whom, with an elegance and modesty almost peculiar to himself, he has characterized by the courtly epithets of petitionhunters and incendiaries. I frankly acknowledge before this House, that I have appeared at several of the meetings that have been advertised, both in Yorkshire and

elsewhere; but I deny that I ever hunted after petitions or petitioners: I have indeed, been often solicited to countenance and support both. And I make no scruple to acknowledge, that I never declined appearing wherever I was invited. I allow, with the hon. gentleman, that the annihilation, or even the diminution of the authority of this House by the people, will be a very great evil; but I cannot grant, that it is the greatest evil that can befal this nation. I can tell him of a greater evil, and that is, the invasion of the people's rights by the authority of this House. I own the evil of which the hon. gentleman has made mention, to be the greatest but one, and from that one the other as naturally flows, as a river from its source. How this evil came to exist, it is not for me to say; the treasury-bench can best explain its origin: for it is my firm belief, that the hon. gentlemen who so worthily fill that distinguished seat, gave it birth, nursed it in its infancy, and trained it to maturity. I do not say that the vote of expulsion, which was the beginning of sorrows, was the offspring of corruption, nor do I say that the majority of this House sold the rights of their constituents, but I do say it, have said it, and will always say it, that they have betrayed them. These are my sentiments, and these I, and every gentleman who hears me, knows to be the sentiments of the people. It is in vain to dissemble any longer. Things are come to a crisis; and I should esteem myself a traitor to my country, were I to suppress the spontaneous dictates of my heart. Ministerial gentlemen will therefore excuse me, when I tell them, that it is my belief, that the authority of this House is not to be maintained by big words and sounding expressions, but by wise counsels and prudent measures. It is in vain that we value ourselves on the sincerity of the principle, if we do not convince others of the rectitude of our proceedings. The people are not such ignorant dupes as certain wiseacres would represent them. They understand their own rights, and know their own interests as well as we do. Language, and not understanding, constitutes all the difference between us; few of them, I fancy, were they present to hear what is said, would entertain a more elevated opinion of those orators by whom they are degraded, than the orators themselves entertain of them. For let me whisper in the ear of some of these gentlemen, that a large paternal estate, a pension,

(the reward not of their own merit) and support in the treasury, are greater recom mendations to a seat in this assembly, than either the honesty of the heart, or the clearness of the head.

After sir George had ended his speech, the debate went on: when

Sir Alexander Gilmour rose up and said, that the words of sir George had a very harsh sound; that, indeed, he was but just come from school, and might not be supposed sufficiently acquainted with the rules and forms of the assembly into which he had not been long admitted; and that therefore his opinion might have but little weight; but that were the House to be influenced by his judgment, some expressions, derogatory to the dignity of that assembly, should not pass uncensured, as he believed them unprecedented.

Mr. Conway said, that allowance should always be made for words spoken in the heat of debate, to which alone he was sure it must be attributed, that expressions carrying so severe a reflection on the whole House, had escaped from so moderate a man as his worthy friend.

Sir George Saville:

Sir; speakers in this House have always been allowed to rise up, to explain what may have been hastily spoken, or hastily censured, and I now rise up to illustrate, but not to retract, what I have said. Suppose that a private gentleman should entertain a bad opinion of his steward, it would certainly be an unfortunate circumstance both for the steward and the gentleman: if this bad opinion should happen to be just, it would be more unfortunate; but if the gentleman should be in a situation which made it dangerous for him to express his opinion, it would certainly be more unfortunate still. I am greatly obliged to the hon. gentleman over the way, for what he has said in my behalf: his opinion of words spoken in heat is certainly just, the law has adopted it, even in cases of murder: if sudden passion has been excited, and the fact is perpetrated before the blood has had time to cool, it takes another nature, and is distinguished by another name. As to myself, I am not conscious that I have spoken in heat; but if I did, I have now had time to cool, and I again say as I said before, that this House has betrayed the rights of its constituents.

Sir Alexander Gilmour then rose up in great anger, and urged, that in times of less licentiousness, members had been sent to the Tower for words of less offence; and that even if passion had been acknowledged, it would not have been admitted

as an excuse.

Sir George Saville then rose up again, and, with his usual said: composure,

Mr. Speaker, I am accused of having spoken hastily, violent, and angry words, but the charge seems more applicable to those who have brought the accusation, if we may judge either by the words or the gestures of the speaker. I am not remarkable for being passionate, I do not feel myself so at this instant; but if I am mistaken, if I am now actually in a rage, I have been so ever since the fatal vote was passed, and shall be so till it is rescinded. Nor shall the mean consideration of my own safety, be ever put in the balance against my duty to my constituents. Let others fall down and worship the golden image which Nebuchadnezzar has set up; I will own no superior but the laws, nor will I bend the knee to any but Him who made

me.

Lord North interposed with great propriety and moderation, and said, that he hoped neither the gentleman who had mentioned the Tower, nor the gentleman who had spoken the hasty words, would think any more about either.

Mr. Serjeant Glynn :

Sir; my hon. friend has been severely censured for declaring, that in his opinion, the majority of this House have betrayed the rights of their constituents; but as to myself, I think his declaration not only innocent but laudable. I conclude that it is innocent, because every member has an indubitable right to declare his sentiments, and upon this right the very existence of this House depends, which, from the moment there is an end of free debate, will degenerate from an assembly of free representatives of a free people, into a gang of slaves. You are, and have long been told daily in the public newspapers, that you have betrayed the rights of the people; and shall an obscure and anonymous writer of paragraphs for newspapers, enjoy a freedom of speech that is denied to the members of this House! Let us be more cautious in establishing despotism among ourselves, and less hasty in assuming a power over each other,

which by turns will degrade us all: let us not break down the mounds which restrain the torrent at its source, lest the people, who are already alarmed, should dread an inundation of tyranny, that will overwhelm them all. I know that our journals contain precedents of such stretches of power as some have shewed an inclination to repeat, but I know too, that our journals contain many things, which are warranted neither by the law nor the constitution, and I will venture to affirm, that those precedents are among the number, though they may happen to have received a sanction by practice since the Revolution. Actions, and not words, are in every case the most proper objects of enquiry and punishment; an overt act, in the opinion of the best lawyers, is almost always necessary to render men accountable in the ordinary commerce of life; and if this is the case, surely the members of this House should not be accountable for words spoken in their debates. Our debates, Sir, can neither be free nor honest, if the tongue is shackled by a slavish fear of giving offence to a majority. Tiberius was perhaps one of the worst characters in all antiquity, yet even Tiberius was satisfied with controuling the actions of men; he never extended his tyranny to their speech: and shall a British senate push the inroads of tyranny upon the natural rights of mankind, more than a monster, who has been held out for ages, as the disgrace of human nature! Let this never be told in the street, let it never even be thought in the closet; if the sacred flame of liberty is every where else extinguished, let it be preserved like the vestal fire among us: it is the principle of life, it is life itself, it is the soul, it is that image of God, without which we cease to be men. But, Sir, I do not only think that the words for which my hon. friend has been censured are blameless, I think they are praiseworthy. If gentlemen would estimate them fairly, they would think themselves rather obliged than injured by a declaration, that is as honest as it is frank. Would they have gentlemen prevaricate, and rather pamper a sickly appetite, than point out the disease! I know that they are sore, yet who would suffer a wound to mortify, rather than endure the pain of dressing? A desperate disease requires a desperate remedy. The present is such: we must not trifle with it. If we do, woe be to us; the avenger is at hand, nay, even now at