No. 71.*

BRADFORD'S SECOND CONFERENCE WITH HARPSFIELD.

On the 16 February in the morning, the Archdeacon, and the other two with him, came again; and after a few by-words spoken, sat down. M. Archdeacon began a very long oration, first respecting what they had said, and how far they had gone overnight. And therewith did begin to prove upwards, succession of Bishops here in England for eight hundred years; in France, at Lyons, for one thousand two hundred years; in Spain, at Hispalen, for eight hundred years; in Italy, at Milan, for one thousand two hundred years; labouring by this to prove his Church. He used all succession of bishops in the East Church, for the more confirmation of his words; and so concluded with an exhortation, and an interrogation. The exhortation, that Bradford would obey this church; the interrogation, whether Bradford could shew any such succession, for the demonstration of his Church, for so he called it, which followed.

Brad. My memory is evil, so that I cannot answer particularly your oration. Wherefore I will generally do it, thinking because your oration is rather to persuade than to prove, that a smaller answer shall serve. If Christ or his apostles, being here on earth, had been required by the prelates of the Church then, to have made a demonstration of that Church, by succession of such high priests, as had approved the doctrine which he taught, I think that Christ would have done as I do. That is, he would have alleged that which upholdeth the Church, even the verity, the Word of God taught and believed; not by the high priests, who of long time had persecuted it, but by the prophets and other good simple men, who perchance were counted for heretics of the Church; which Church was not tied to succession, but to the Word of God. And this to think, St. Peter giveth me occasion, when he saith, that as it went in the Church before Christ's coming, so shall it go in the Church after his

Fox iii. 294.

coming; but then the pillars of the Church, were persecutors of the Church; therefore the like we must look for now.

Harps. I can gather and prove succession in Jerusalem, of the High Priests from Aaron's time.

Brad. I grant, but not such succession as allowed the truth. Harps. Why, did they not allow Moses' law?

Brad. Yea, and keep it, as touching the books thereof, as you do the Bible; and Holy Scriptures. But the true interpretation and meaning of it, they did corrupt, as you have done, and do; and therefore the persecution which they stirred up against the Prophets and Christ, was not for the law, but for the interpretation of it. For they taught as you do now, that we must fetch the interpretation of the Scriptures at your hands. But to make an end, death I look daily for, yea hourly, and I think my time is but very short; therefore I had need spend as much time with God as I can, whilst I have it, for his help and comfort; and therefore I pray you bear with me, that I do not now particularly, and in more words, answer your long talk. If I saw death not so near me as it is, I would then weigh every piece of your oration, if you would give me the sum of it, and I would answer accordingly; but because I dare not, nor I will not leave off looking and preparing for that which is at hand, I shall desire you to hold me excused, though I do as I do, and heartily thank you for your gentle good will. I shall heartily pray God, our Father, to give you the same light and life, I do wish to myself.

And so Bradford began to rise up, but then began M. Archdeacon to tell him, that he was in a very perilous case; and that he was sorry to see him so settled.

Harps. As for death, whether it be nigh or far off I know not, neither forceth it, so that you did die well.

Brad. I doubt not in this case, but that I shall die well; for as I hope and am certain, my death shall please the Lord, so I trust I shall die cheerfully, to the comfort of his children.

Harps. But what if you be deceived?

Brad. What if you should say the sun did not shine now?*

The sun did shine through the window where they sat.-Fox.

Harps. Well, I am sorry to see you so secure and careless.

Brad. Indeed I am more carnally secure and careless than I should be, God make me more vigilant; but in this case I cannot be so secure, for I am most assured I am in the truth.

Harps. That are ye not; for you are out of the catholic church.

Brad. No, though you have excommunicated me out of your Church, yet am I in the Catholic Church of Christ; and am, and by God's grace shall be a child, and an obedient child of it for ever. I hope Christ will have no less care for me, than he had for the blind man excommunicated of the synagogue. And further I am sure that the necessary articles of the faith, I mean the twelve articles of the creed, I confess and believe with that which you call the holy Church; so that even your Church hath taken too much upon her to excommunicate me for that, which by the testimony of my Lord of Durham, in the Book of the Sacrament lately put forth, was free many an hundred year after Christ, to believe or not believe. Harps. What is that?

Brad. Transubstantiation.

Harps. Why? Ye are not condemned therefore only.

Brad. For that, and because I deny that wicked men do receive Christ's body.

Harps. You agree not with us in the presence, nor in any thing else.

Brad. How you believe, you know; for my part I confess a presence of whole Christ, God and man, to the faith of the receiver.

Harps. Nay, you must believe a real presence in the sacrament. Brad. In the sacrament? Nay, I will not shut him in, nor tie him to it, otherwise than faith seeth and perceiveth. If I should include Christ really present in the sacrament, or tie him to it otherwise than to the faith of the receiver; then the wicked men should receive him, which I do not, nor will, by God's grace, believe.

Harps. More pity, but a man may easily perceive, you make no presence at all, and therefore you agree not therein with us.

Brad. I confess a presence, and a true presence, but to the faith of the receiver.

What, saith one that stood by, of Christ's very body which died for us?

Brad. Yea, even of whole Christ, God and man, to feed the faith of him that receiveth it.

Harps. Why, this is nothing else but to exclude the omnipotency of God, and all kind of miracle in the sacrament?

Brad. I do not exclude his omnipotency, but you do it rather; for I believe that Christ can accomplish his promise, the substance of bread and wine being there, as well as the accidents, which you believe not. When we come to the sacrament, we come not to feed our bodies, and therefore we have but a little piece of bread; but we come to feed our souls with Christ by faith, which the wicked do want, and therefore they receive nothing but panem Domini, as Judas did, and not panem Dominum, as the other apostles did.

Harps. The wicked do receive the very body of Christ, but not the grace of his body.

Brad. They receive not the body, for Christ's body is no dead carcase; he that receiveth it, receiveth the spirit, which is not with. out grace I trow.

Harps. Well, you have many errors; you count the mass for abomination, and yet St. Ambrose said mass.

And so he read out of a written book, a sentence of St. Ambrose to prove it.

Brad. Why Sir, the mass as it is now, was nothing so in St. Ambrose's time. Was not the most part of the canon made since by Gregory and Scholasticus?

Harps. Indeed a great piece of it was made, as ye say, by Gregory; but Scholasticus was before St. Ambrose's time.

Brad. 1 ween not; howbeit I will not contend. St. Gregory saith, that the apostles said mass without the canon, only with the Lord's prayer.

Harps. You say true; for the canon is not the greatest part of the mass; the greatest part is the sacrifice, elevation, transubstantiation, and adoration.

It appears to be uncertain who is here referred to. St. Gregory mentions him. -Lib. vii. Ind. 2. Epist. 63.-Petrie i. 151.-Preservative against Popery, vol. ii. Tit. vi. ch. 2. p. 75. Fabricius, in his Bibliotheca Græca, refers to two persons who bore the above cognomen, viz. John of Antioch, vol. x. 158. and who is probably the individual alluded to; and John Climacus, vol. viii. 615, who was Abbot of Mount Sinai.

Brad. I can away with none of those.

Harps. No, I think the same; but yet, hoc facite, telleth plainly the sacrifice of the church.

Brad. You confound sacrifices, not discerning betwixt the sacrifice of the church, and for the church. The sacrifice of the church, is no propitiatory sacrifice, but a gratulatory sacrifice, and as for, hoc facite, is not referred to any sacrificing, but to the whole action of taking, eating, &c.

Harps. You speak not learnedly now; for Christ made his supper only to the twelve apostles, not admitting his mother, or any of the seventy disciples to it. Now the apostles do signify the priests.

Brad. I think that you speak, as you would men should understand it; for else you would not keep the cup away from the laity. We have great cause to thank you, that you will give us of your bread; for I perceive you order the matter so, as though Christ had not commanded it to his whole church.

Then Harpsfield would have proved elevation by a place of Basil. Brad. I have read the place, which seemeth to make nothing for elevation; but be it as it is, this is no time for me to scan the doubtful places of the doctors with you. I have been in prison long without books, and all necessaries for study: and now death draweth nigh, and I by your leave, must now leave off, to prepare for him.

Harps. If I could do you good, I would be right glad; either in soul or body, for you are in a perilous case both ways.

Brad. Sir, I thank you for your good will, my case is as it is. I thank God it was never so well with me; for death to me shall be life. Cress. It were best for you to desire M. Archdeacon that he would make suit for you, that you might have a time to confer.

So.

Harps. I will do the best I can, for I pity his case,

Brad. Sir, I will not desire any body to sue for time for me. I am not wavering, neither would I that any body should think I were But if you have the charity and love you pretend towards me, and thereto do think I am in an error, I think the same should move you to do as you would be done to. As ye think of me, so do I of you, that you are far out of the way; and I do not only think it, but also am thereof most assured.

And in this, and such like gentle talk, they departed.