believe not the definition of that, which ye call the Church? I doubt not but that he holdeth firmly the articles of our belief, though in other things he dissent from your definition, yet he shall be saved.

Brad. No, it is Paul's, who saith, that if they hold the foundation Christ, though they build upon him straw and stubble, yet they shall be saved.

Heath. Lord God, how you delight to lean to the hard and dark places of the scriptures.

Day. I will shew you how that Luther did excommunicate Zuinglius for this matter.

And so he read a piece of Luther making for his purpose.

Brad. My Lord, what Luther writeth, as you much pass not, no more do I in this case. My faith is not builded on Luther, Zuinglius, or Ecolampadius in this point; and indeed to tell you truly, I never read any of their works in this matter. As for them, I do think assuredly that they were and are God's children, and saints with him.

Heath. Well, you are out of the communion of the Church. Brad. I am not, for it consisteth, and is in faith.

Heath. Lo, how you make your Church invisible; for you would have the communion of it to consist in faith.

Brad. For to have communion with the Church needeth no visibleness of it; for communion consisteth as I said, in faith, and not in exterior ceremonies, as appeareth both by Paul, who would have one faith; and by Irenæus to Victor, for the observation of Easter, saying that, disagreeing of fasting, should not break the agreeing of faith.

Day. The same place hath often even wounded my conscience, because we dissevered ourselves from the See of Rome.

Brad. Well, God forgive you; for you have done evil to bring England thither again.

Here my Lord of York took a book of paper of common places, and read a piece of St. Augustin, contra epistolam fundamenti; how that there were many things that did hold St. Austin in the bosom of the Church; consent of people and nations,

authority confirmed with miracles, nourished with hope, increased with charity, established with antiquity. Besides this, there holdeth me in the Church, said St. Augustin, the succession of priests from St. Peter's seat until this present bishop. Last of all the very name of catholic doth hold me, &c.

Heath. Lo, how say you to this of St. Augustine? Paint me out your Church thus.

Brad. My Lord, these words of St. Austin make as much for me as for you; although I might answer, that all this, if they had been so firm as you make them, might have been alleged against Christ and his apostles. For there was the law and the ceremonies, consented to by the whole people, confirmed with miracles, antiquity, and continual succession of bishops, from Aaron's time until that present.

Day. In good faith, M. Bradford, you make too much of the state of the Church, before Christ's coming.

Brad. Therein I do but as Peter teacheth, 2 Pet. ii.-and Paul very often. You would gladly have your Church here very glorious, and as a most pleasant lady. But as Christ said, Beatus est quicunque non fuerit offensus per me, so may his Church say, Blessed are they that are not offended at me.

Heath. Yea, you think that none is of the Church, but such as suffer persecution.

Brad. What I think, God knoweth; I pray your Grace judge me by my words and speaking, and mark what Paul saith, All that will live godly in Christ Jesus must suffer persecution. Sometimes Christ's Church hath rest here; but commonly it is not so, and especially towards the end her form will be more unseemly.

Heath. But what say you to St. Austin? Where is your Church that hath the consent of people and nations?

Brad. Even all people and nations that be God's people, have consented with me, and I with them in the doctrine of faith.

Heath. Lo, ye go about to shift off all things.

Brad. No, my Lord; I mean simply, and so speak, God

knoweth.

Heath. St. Augustine doth here talk of succession, even from Peter's seat.

now.

Brad. Yea, that seat then was nothing so much corrupt as it is

Heath. Well, you always judge the Church.

Brad. No, my Lord, Christ's sheep discern Christ's voice, but they judge it not; so they discern the Church, but judge her not. Heath. Yes, that they do.

Brad. No, and it like your Grace; and yet full well may one not only doubt, but judge also of the Romish Church; for she obeyeth not Christ's voice, as Christ's true Church doth.

Heath. Wherein?

Brad. In Latin service, and robbing the laity of Christ's cup in the sacrament; and in many other things, in which it committeth most horrible sacrilege.

Day. Why? Latin service was in England, when the Pope was gone.

Brad. True; the time was in England when the Pope was away, but not all popery; as in King Henry's days.

Heath. Latin service was appointed to be sung and had in the choir, where only were clerici, that is, such as understood Latin; the people sitting in the body of the church, praying their own private prayers; and this may yet well be seen by making of the chancel and choir, so as the people could not come in, or hear them.

Brad. Yea, but in Chrysostom's time, and also in the Latin Church in St. Jerome's time, all the Church, saith he, reboat, Amen; that is, answereth again mightily, Amen. Whereby we may see, that the prayers were made So, that both the people heard them and understood them.

Day. Ye are to blame to say that the Church robbeth the people of the cup.

Brad. Well, my Lord, term it as it please you; all men know that the laity hath none of it.

Day. Indeed I would wish the church would define again, that they might have it, for my part.

Brad. If God make it free, who can define to make it bound?

Heath. Well, M. Bradford, we lose our labour; for ye seek to put away all things which are told you to your good; your Church no man can know.

Brad. Forsooth Chrysostom saith, Tantummodo per scripturas, only by the scriptures; and this speaketh he very oftentimes, as ye well know.

Heath. Indeed that is of Chrysostom in opere imperfecto, which may be doubted of. The thing whereby the Church may be known best, is succession of Bishops.

Brad. No, my Lord, Lyra* full well writeth upon Matthew, The Church consisteth not in men, by reason either of secular or temporal power; but in men indued with true knowledge, and con. fession of faith, and of verity. And in Hilary's time, you know he writeth to Aurentius, that the Church was hidden rather in caves and holes, than did glisten and shine in thrones of preeminence.

Then came one of the servants and told them that my Lord of Durham tarried for them at M. York's house; and this was after they had tarried three hours with Bradford. And after their man was come, they put up their written books of common places, and said that they lamented his case. They willed him to read over a book which did Dr. Croome good; and so wishing him good in words, they went their way, and poor Bradford to his prison.

No. 73.+

CONFERENCE with TWO SPANISH FRIARS.

On the 25 February, about eight o'clock in the morning, two Spanish Friars came to the Compter, to talk with Bradford, sent, as they said, by the Earl of Derby; of whom the one was the

* Nicholas of Lyra, a converted Jew, so called from the place of his birth, near Evreux in Normandy. His Commentaries on the Bible, and other controversial works against the Jews, are deservedly in high repute.

+ Fox iii. 299.

king's confessor, and the other was Alphonsus, who had before written a popish book against heresies.

When Bradford was called, the confessor asked him in Latin, for their talk was in that language, whether he had not seen nor heard of one Alphonsus,* that had written a book against heresies.

Brad. I do not know him.

Con. Well, this man, pointing to Alphonsus, is he. We are come to you of love and charity, by the means of the Earl of Derby, because you desired to confer with us.

Brad. I never desired your coming, nor to confer with you, or any other. But seeing you are come of charity, as you say, I cannot but thank you; and as touching conference, though I desire it not, yet I will not refuse to talk with you, if you will.

Alph. It were requisite that you did pray unto God, that ye might follow the direction of God's spirit, that he would inspire you, so that ye be not addicted to your self, will, or wit.

Whereupon Bradford made a prayer, and besought God to direct all their wills, words, and works, as the wills, words, and works of his children for ever.

Alph. Yea, you must pray with your heart. For if you speak but with tongue only, God will not give you his grace.

Brad. Sir, do not judge, lest ye be judged, You have heard my words, now charity would have you leave the judgment of the heart to God.

Alph. You must be, as it were, a neuter, and not wedded to yourself, but as one standing in doubt; pray and be ready to receive what God shall inspire; for in vain laboureth our tongue to speak else.

Brad. Sir, my sentence, if you mean it for religion, must not be in a doubting or uncertain, as I thank God I am certain in that

• Alphonsus à Castro, a Franciscan Friar, confessor to King Philip, and famous for his treatise De Hæresibus. In a sermon preached before his master, he declaimed at large against taking away people's lives for religion; inveighed against the English bishops for doing so; and said that they had not learned it in Scripture, which taught bishops in the spirit of meekness to instruct those that opposed them; and not to burn them for their consciences.-Burnet's Hist. Reform. vol. ii. pt. i. 477.