not fee who it was. I was looking towards the people at the fame. time.

Crafs examined. I had been there during the whole of the day. The people hallooed Wilkes and liberty, and wanted to fee him. There was nothing done but throwing a parcel of fods and stones; the juftices defired they would go about their bufinefs. This continued a long time; I faw Mr. Ponton truck in the morning before that; it might be with a tone for what I know; Mr. Gillam was ftruck on the head, and a ferjeant was cut on the lip; the throwing of ftones was feveral times repeated, I heard the justices defire them to disperse a great many times. I did not hear the proclamation read. I was in the other part of the field, defiring the people to difperfe; the juftices gave us orders to difperfe the mob as much as we could. I did attempt to do it; I gave them good words, but it all ended in nothing at all. Not many of the mob did go off. There were fifteen or twenty thousand.

Robert Allen. I am a contable; I was prefent on the 10th of May when the firing was; I don't think there was upon my foul ang provocation, for there was no attempt made to take any prifoners; there were a great number of people in the fields, it was a gene al thoroughfare, and I believe every body that went through the fields stopped there: there was a great party of horse guards came and ode among the people, and caufed a great disturbance; the gaol is railed round, and the people were leaning upon thefe rails; the horse rode among them and difperfed them to the out borders of the fields; when they came to the road and caufeway they buzzard and hiffed the foldiers, that was all the provocation I faw; the horfe occafioned a great disturbance, and the whole disturbance I believe; the people buzzaed and hiffed, but no farther riot. I faw two or three people that fell with their wounds. At that time I was not near enough to hear any orders given to fire. I do remember the manner of firing. The body of fol diers were within about forty yards of the causeway, the way that people walk in; they call it platoons, I believe, they were feparated, not all together; they fired at random, half a dozen at a time, more or lefs; a great number of them leaded three times, and feemed to enjoy their fire. I thought it a great cruelty. Nothing appeared amongst the people but hiffing at this time, and hifing the foldiers as they rode backwards and forwards. I faw no outrages at that time. This was about three, or a little after. I cannot fay I faw a fone throwed the whole day to my knowledge; I was in different parts, I was not there at firft. I did not fee the weaver as was talked of.

Crofs examined. I came firft about two o'clock, fome little time after Mr. Allen was murdered. I am a peruke-maker and hatter, my bufinefs would not admit me fooner. I did see the juftices; the commanding officer came up and aid, "I believe we have difperfed the mob." Mr. Gillam faid, "I hope there is no mifchief done." This was a very fhort time after firing; the commanding officer faid, "You may depend upon it there is no mifchief done, becaufe we always fire in the air; there was a great

number

number of people afterwards reporting there was murder done. That was the horfe officer. I had fome little converfation with Mr. Gillam, but I fuppofe that is no way neceffary in regard to the examination now, it is not worth mentioning, I think it will not avail any thing; there was one Boddington, a ball went thro his thigh and shivered it; they were going to order me into confinement for faying it was a cruel thing; "I faid, Gentlemen, as you have ordered this fire, it is very proper you should order this man away." Mr. Gillam faid, Why don't you go and take him away." I faid it was not in my power to take him away. The hazard of my trade and family hindered my being there before two o'clock, it was not in my power to have come fooner. I was in the field at the time the firing was ordered by the juftices almost the whole day, but not near enough to hear any order for firing. Sometimes I fuppofe forty yards from Mr. Gillam, and fometimes clofe to him; at the time the firing was ordered, I fuppofe I might be about forty yards diftant. I was among the general body of the people. I could fee the people upon whom the firing was. I obferved nothing but hallooing. I did not observe any thing of the whole body of people but hallooing. I did not the whole time I was there fee a ftone flung. I was no relation at all to the Allen that was killed.

George Milford Flowers. I live in St. Olave's; I was prefent in St. George's-fields the 10th of May; I came there a few minutes after twelve. I went into the Haymarket; I continued there a quarter of an hour. I was there part of the day before the quarter of an hour. I obferved the people a good deal diffatisfied at the death of Allen; I did not come till after that. I did not fee Mr. Gillam there then. I did not fee any thing but diffatisfaction at the death of Allen, they expreffed it in words; I did not fee any flicks or any thing thrown; I went to Mr. Allen's, and from thence down the Borough to enquire for a juftice of the peace, to have an evidence made of that young man. I came back near two; I went along the wall of the King's-bench between two and three; I paffed from thence to the King's-bench, and from thence to the marshal's houfe. There was a great tumult among the foldiers, I believe the people were fleeing and the foldiers fleeing. I was not in a fituation to observe the foot, this was the horse; I was clofe by the prifon wall. I did not obferve that I was there the time the foot fired. I did not remain, but paffed along. I faw Mr. Gillam a little after, but not immediately; I was waiting to obtain a warrant for a foldier that killed Mr. Allen; Mr. Gillam took off his wig and rubbed his head, he faid ne had received a blow with a brickbat or fomething, but he thanked God, he said, that his fkull was thick it had not hurt it. Mr. Gillam did not give any reafon for firing in my hearing. I did not fee Redburn that day to my knowledge; I had fome converfation with Mr. Giliam in the evening, he faid he had had fomething throwed at him. Mr. Gillam at any other part of the day, did nothing but what I have mentioned before.

James

James Darbyshire. I know Mr. Gillam, and I remember this roth of May very well. I had converfation with Mr. Gillam about the accident that day, about one or two o'clock; this was after the murder of Mr. Allen's fon, before the killing of Redburn.

Council for profecution. Then that has nothing to do with this matter; we will not ask you any further questions.

Darbyshire. Then what do I come here for?

Council for the profecution. Can you prove any thing?

Darbyshire. Yes, I was there from twelve till nine at night; I faw the whole behaviour of Mr. Gillam; I am a bookfeller, and live in the parish of St. George's, Hanover-fquare; I came into St. George's fields, and went into the King's-bench prifon; I came a little before twelve o'clock; I did not go the ufual way that I was going; I went into the prifon for fafety indeed; I went into the coffee-room, and met with two friends, and we drank part of a bottle of perry; I ftaid there about half an hour, then my friends and I said we had no bufinefs there, and it would be our best way to leave that place, and go to our refpective homes; I faw a greas many of the military there; there was a disturbance from the military riding among the people; I could fee into the fields, becaufe there were glafs windows there; I did not obferve any ill behaviour in the people, and I dare fay there was none intended; I did quit the prifon; when I came out of the prifon I was going into the city, and at the end of the wall there were people crying out, there was a murder committed; this was a little before one o'clock. Court. This being before one o'clock, it has no relation to the death of Redburn. You see the accufation against Mr. Gillam is for being inftrumental in the death of Redburn.

Darbyshire. My Lord, I am going to tell you the whole of Mr. Gillam's behaviour from first to laft.

Council for profecution. Keep yourself to the behaviour of Mr. Gillam.

Darbyshire After the murder, I turned to the King's-bench prifon, by the defire of Mrs. Allen, to fee after the murderer; this was about one o'clock; I applied to the juftices for a warrant to apprehend the murderer or murderers; the juftices would not grant any; I then applied to juftice Gillam; he faid

Court. It is to be understood that we are not to let evidence be given that is not applicable to the cafe in hand; this gentleman is charged with a crime relative to one Redburn; this man is telling you about bis conduct about one Allen; it is the duty of the bench, where there is no council in fupport of the profecution, to fee that proper evidence be given; and if the council for the profecution does not confine the witneffes to the proper matter, to take care that improper evidence be not given.

Darbyshire. Mr. Gillam told me he had orders from the miniftry to fire upon the people, and that there must be fome men killed, and that it was better to kill five and twenty to-day than have an hundred to kill to-morrow; this was in the field, oppofite the marshal's house. It was between one and two o'clock; the other evidences have been admitted to speak; be faid he had orders from the miniftry to fire upon

the

the people, and that there must be fome men killed; this was in the prefence of the foldiers, and that they had better kill five and twenty to-day than an hundred tomorrow. All the afternoon there were people taken into cuftody, and put into a cellar under the marshal's houfe: the place where I heard these expreffions was near the marthal's houfe.

Q. Name thofe perfons that were prefent.

Darbyshire. What, the foldiers! I am not fo well acquainted with them; I believe it was faid twice in the house and out of the house, and with a fneer, as if murder was a thing of no confequence; it was without the marshal's houfe, as near as I can remember; there were fome people by at this time, but I don't recollect who they were. Mr. Ponton was there; I don't know whether he was in hearing, but I faw him there. I cannot recollect whether he was near at the time; there were people there, but I don't recollect particular persons what their names were; I do not know whether Mr. Ponton was upon the spot at that time; I saw that gentleman feveral times in the course of the afternoon.

I believe fuch a converfation was fpoke twice, but I am not certain; I am not certain only as to once; to the best of my knowledge that was oppofite the marfhal's houfe. I believe it was about two o'clock. I cannot name any perfons that were prefent who I know at that time were within hearing. I do not exactly recollect the fecond time when it was faid; there was a good deal of discourse in the marshal's houfe; they talked of it as a thing of trifling concern, a matter of no concern. Mr. Gillam, upon my application to him for a warrant for the murderers, faid he would grant no warrant; he said it was no murder, for that he had orders from the miniftry to fire upon the people, and there must be fome killed, and it was better to kill five and twenty to-day than a hundred to-morrow; how long that was after the first converfation I cannot tell; it was not at night; I do not fay the very particular words were faid, but there were several things faid.

2. I ask you as to the time;

Darbyshire. You afked me before; I have answered it, I cannot tell.

Council. You cannot tell whether it was immediately after the first, or five or fix hours after; was it in the marshal's house?

Darbyshire. I am not certain; I believe it was, but am not certain; you will not draw any thing from me.

Council. You do not fix any particular time or place for the second conversation; you do not recollect any particular perfon that was present in that fecond fuppofed converfation?

Darbyshire. I told you that before; you afk me the fame question three or four times over.

2. What did you fay there was a fecond converfation for?

Darbyshire. Because I was asked if there was any thing of that fort.

2. When you heard it a second time, what did you hear?

Darbyshire. It was not the fame words, but to that purport; it was with grea difficulty that any warrant could be obtained; if you will let me go on, I shall say a good deal more than I have.

2. In this laft cafe do you mean to give the words the justice used? Darbyshire. The words the juftice ufed.

2. Then mention them again, because I did not understand whether they are your fenfe of the converfation, or the words he used?

Darbyshire. Gillam faid it was no murder; I did not hear the other juftices fav any thing in particular; I imagined that this gentleman was foreman on that most glorious day.

Council. In this fecond converfation you underfood Mr. Gillam to say, they were determined to grant no warrants to apprehend these persons that committed what you call murder ?

Darbyshire. Mr. Gillam said, if their names could be procured he would grant

warrants: VOL. III.

A a

Counci

Council. Then what you mean by this is to fay, Mr. Gillam faid he would not grant any warrants till he knew their names?

Darbyshire. This was in the marihal's house, but the words were used on the -first application for warrants.

Council. Then he faid the reafon why he did not grant warrants was, because you did not name the names of particular perfons; how long have you been acquainted with Mr. Gillam?

Darbyshire. The 10th of May, above twelve o'clock, was the firft of my acquaintance with him; I did not know there was a Mr. Gillam living before, and I wish I had not feen him then, because I saw such acts of cruelty I never faw before.

Council. Mr. Gillam was in company with you in fome room in that fecond conversation?

Darbyshire. Many hours.

2. How came you together as acquaintance if you had never known him before?

Darbyshire. Because I was applying for warrants, endeavouring to bring the murderers to light; I was there, and drank there, I believe out of the fame glafs; but I am not fure of that; I think that is not material; Mr. Flowers was in the room; there was the cow-man in the room, whofe name I do not recollect; I faw Mr. Ponton there feveral times. The application for thefe warrants was particularly made by Mr. Flowers and another gentleman, Mr. Horne, who I believe is a clergyman, and lives at Brentford.

2. from a juryman. Did not you fay you had fomething else to say?

Darbyshire. I have; the juftice's clerk (I imagined him to be one) he acted as fuch upon taking the depofition of one of the people for the murder of Allen, beginning with what happened from twelve o'clock; when he came to that part wherein he faid he heard Mr. Gillam order the military to fire upon the people, Mr. Gillam faid, "Hold, hold, do not take his depofition from that time before "that, but what happened in the cow-houfe." I imagined Mr. Gillam was confcious of his guilt.

2. I defire you would explain one particular tranfaction---

Court. You fee, brother Glynn, this is not evidence.

Serjeant Glynn. No, it is not; only the jury defired to hear what he had to say, A Juryman. We thought he might know fomething more of the matter. 2. Were any other juftices prefent except Mr. Gillam ?

Darbyshire. At the time he said it was no murder? No, not as I know of. 2. I understood you that the juftices faid they thought fuch a transaction no murder?

Darbyshire. That was only Mr. Gillam, and no other justice at that time as I know of.

Court. Whether the words you mention were spoke without the marshal's house or within?

·Darbyshire. I have told you, my Lord, it was without the marshal's house, in the hearing of the foldiers, and that I believe it was about two o'clock; I cannot judge to a quarter or half an hour; I believe it was after we went into the marshal's houfe; I think it was.

2. to George Milford Flowers. Do you remember feeing Mr. Darbyshire there? Flowers. Yes; I made repeated applications for a warrant to Mr. Gillam in the marshal's houfe; about three o'clock I faw Mr. Darbyshire feveral times; he faid a great many things to me; the juftice ordered me into cuftody for helping the woman; he ordered depofitions to be taken; be faid they were all alike, and would not have them, he would not have them otherwife; I did not get a warrant; Mr. Pardon was taking depofitions; he faid he could not help it, it was as they gave them.

2. Was any thing faid after the firing at that time?

Flowers. He faid it was owing to their throwing at his head; Justice Capel was there; be faid he had an order from the miniftry to kill twenty-five of the people. 2. Did Mr. Gillam fay any thing to that effect?

Flower