crimes to which men abandon themselves; and the numerous and powerful legal and moral checks and restraints, against which this tide of corruption rushes onward.

Now, without adverting to more scripture testimony, these facts, proved by experience and observation, make out as clear a case as can be established by moral reasoning. Now, as men are in a state of depravity, it follows that they are not saved--they are under condemnation and moral death; hence, as long as they remain depraved, they remain condemned and lost to virtue and happiness. Thus far I trust I have the consent of Mr. Austin himself, to the soundness of my argument. I suppose also he will agree with me, that the depraved man is necessarily unhappy and that the strength of proof that unhappiness or misery will continue always, is equal to the strength of proof that depravity will always continue. Here let it be understood that depravity is a moral, not natural or physical evil-nor does it arise out of natural or physical evil; hence, it is not subject to the operation of physical laws. Let it be farther observed here, that the burden of proof rests on Universalism. Universalism asserts that all men will be finally happy: hence, it is bound to prove that all depravity will be destroyed, as well as all its effects. If there is a failure at this point, then Universalism is bound to admit the continuance of misery, since depravity and misery go together. But in the absence of positive proof that it will come to an end, we proceed to prove that it may and will continue. And if we prove only that it may continue, we put it forever out of the power of Universalism to establish the final holiness and happiness of all men. In proof of the continuance of human depravity, we offer the following thoughts:

1. Its existence as a moral evil under the moral government of God. The bare fact that moral evil exists, is proof that it will continue, unless there be positive evidence that power, external to itself, will be employed to bring it to an end. Depravity, left to the operation of its own laws, will perpetuate its existence ad infinitum.

2. Depravity shuts out moral light and love of virtue from the min, and promotes a relish for sinful indulgence. Hence, the Bible says, "men love darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil." They resist the light, neither will they come to the light, "lest their deeds should be reproved." St. Paul tells us of a class of sinners, who were willingly ignorant: they hated light to such an extent, and depravity had so strong an influence over them, that they "did not like to retain God in their knowlelge-and their love of sin was so great that they "rolled it as a sweet morsel under their tongue." Is such a state of mind and heart favorable to the destruction of depravity? is it not rather a pledge that it shall continue?

3. Punishment cannot destroy depravity. So far as punish

ment arises out of a sinful course, it is a natural consequence or effect of sin. Hence, this punishment cannot destroy sin, because an effect cannot destroy its cause. So far as punishment is positive, it is inflicted by the law giver, as the penalty of his violated law. This punishment cannot destroy depravity, because it is its object to preserve the honor and stability of the government. First, by guarding the law from infraction, and secondly, by seeking satisfaction when it is transgressed. There is nothing in the nature or design of punishment adapted to destroy depravity. Punishment may act as a motive on the mind of the sinner-it may lead to reflection, to repentance-it may lead to a determination to embrace the gospel; but in this case it is the gospel that destroys depravity, not punishment. Depravity cannot be destroyed without the operation of divine grace; but there is no grace in punishment, because it is the infliction of law, and there is no grace in law; therefore punishment cannot destroy depravity.

And if we wish farther proof of this, we have it in the practical and moral results of the systems of punishment established among men, and in the fact that thousands persevere and die in sin, though they are the subjects of God's penal dispensations and visitations in this world.

4. The strength of depravity is increased by indulgence. Every repeated act of depravity increases the sinful bias of the mind. On the principles of philosophy it must be so. As the strength of moral power is improved by exercise, so the strength of passion and principle, whether good or bad, is increased by indulgence. The stream of human depravity runs downward, and the farther it proceeds from its source, the more deep and rapid does it become, until every moral barrier and virtuous restraint is swept away, and the sinner abandons himself to the full power and influence of his vicious propensities. Hence, says Paul, speaking prophetically, "evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived."

Look at the downward course of the drunkard, the liar, the thief, and the licentious man, as practical illustrations and confirmations of the truth of this position. The beginning may be small, but the end is like the breaking away of dykes, and the letting out of water. Do these facts furnish any proof, or allow any hope even, that all men will be holy and happy?

5. Thousands, resisting all moral restraints and reformative influences, commence active life under depraved principles, increase in depravity as they grow older, and leave this world under the unrestrained influence of vicious indulgence. One is a tippler at twenty-a drunkard at thirty-and at forty dies with the "delirium tremens." Another is a liar at ten-a thief at twenty -a murderer at thirty-and to escape detection and punishment, ends his life by suicide. And in various ways, tens of thousands live and die, exhibiting no other feelings than hatred of God, and

love of every thing vicious. Thus we have shown you man, depraved in youth, in manhood, in old age, in death particularly displaying his ruling passion strongly, as far as we can trace him. His course is marked with blackest moral turpitude; and when he leaves our sight, 'tis done by a depraved act of peculiar baseness. Now, where is he, and what is his moral condition? Tell me, sir, has he ceased to be depraved? If not, will he cease to be depraved? If so, when, and where, and how? Let me have your demonstration, sir: and recollect, nothing short of demonstration will answer here. We must have something on which the mind can fasten as infallible security. We saw him as he passed, and he was depraved-we saw him when he left the world, and he was still more depraved. By what process is this incarnate devil transformed into an adoring worshipper at God's right hand? We wait for an answer.

In the meantime we remark, the only remedy for the depravity of man, is in the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. But the benefit of this is only enjoyed by those who use the proffered grace, and improve the light reflected upon the mind. This God gives power to do; and yet, as we have seen, many despise and spurn every gracious offer, and rush on madly to ruin. For such there is no hope. "He that is filthy, let him be filthy still." Thus we have shown, that the depravity of man, in its nature, tendencies and results, goes directly to establish the eternal perdition of the ungodly. Nothing can prevent this issue in regard to every depraved sinner, but his timely appropriation of the appointed remedy. Let Mr. Austin disprove this, if he can. Let him present a thus saith the Lord, for the notion that man is to be redeemed and saved from his depravity and misery in a future world, and I promise to give up the point and suspend this discussion.[Time expired.

[MR. AUSTIN'S THIRD REPLY.]

Brother Moderators:--In commencing his third speech, the gentleman in the affirmative, introduces the following declaration of the Most High-"The Lord will not cast off forever. But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. For he doth not afflict willingly, nor grieve the children of men.”—(Lam. iii. 31-33.) It would be difficult to determine why he called up this passage, in this stage of our discussion, after noticing it before it was introduced in support of the affirmative of the second question. The probability is, however, that after laborious cogitation he fancies he has luckily discovered something that will enable him to weaken the support it yields to the salvation of the world. As usual, when seeking to destroy the most positive declarations of God, the Elder very unceremoniously manufactures a condition, which he tacks to the

passage, and that he fancies, makes it all straight, according to orthodoxy. So ingeniously has this improving of the word of Jehovah been done, that he has metamorphosed one of the most positive declarations against endless punishment, that Deity could utter, or human language express, into a very respectable proof, as he supposes, of the very doctrine which the Creator designed to contradict. God says he "WILL NOT cast off forever!" Mr. Holmes, after having dove-tailed his condition into the passage, would have the audience believe he has adroitly turned it around so that it reads directly backwards, in regard to the meaning God designed it to convey--as follows: "The Lord WILL cast off for ever. Though he cause grief here, yet will he cause greater, even endless, grief hereafter; because he WILL NOT have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. For he DOTH afflict willingly, and grieve the children of men!!!" I humbly suggest my friend has made rather too free with the declarations of the Almighty! Any reader of the Bible can see at a glance, that there is no conditionality attached to the passage. Whatever the prophet says in the context, either in regard to the rewards God bestows upon the humble and upright, or the punishments he inflicts upon the wicked, in no respect invalidates or weakens the positive assertions of the passage under consideration. While speaking of rewards and punishment, the Most High reveals a primary and fundamental principle in his government, viz. that however severely he may feel it right to punish his disobedient children, yet he will not cast them off for ever; but that in the midst of judgment he will remember mercy, because his mercies are a vast multitude. And a most satisfactory and gracious reason has been assigned, why the Father of Spirits is thus merciful. "He doth not afflict willingly, [simply to torment,] nor grieve the children of men!"

But the Elder fancies he has met with a "windfall." He has found a passage which utters something about being cast off for ever. David once said to his son Solomon--"If thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever."-(1 Chron. xxviii. 9.)* But in what sense would he cast him off for ever? Not as his creature--not as his offspring-but as a King. In other words, he would take away his authority, his dominion, as an earthly Ruler. The principle upon which God would continue unto him his kingdom-his regal power and splendor--is laid down in a preceding verse-"I will establish his kingdom for ever, IF he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments as at this day." (verse 7.) But if he be not thus constant, then Jehovah would cast him off for ever as King of Israel, and deprive him of the high trusts conferred upon him. But while setting him aside

This passage has been omitted in his printed speech.

as an earthly monarch, he would remember mercy as a father, and restore the erring in due time, to holiness and heaven!

My brother opposite insists God does punish men capitally in this life-that sinners sometimes receive as punishment for their crimes, bodily injuries from which they do not recover. In taking this position, Elder Holmes reiterates his belief in punishment in this life. This is a direct blow from his own hand, against his favorite dogma of Endless Punishment. He will not have the hardihood to contend that men will be punished hereafter and forever, on account of deeds for which they have already been punished in this world. But although men do occasionally experience bodily injury, in the present life, as a punishment for sin, this is not a capital punishment, under the government of God. Capital punishment is the highest punishment which a tribunal can inflict on a culprit, and one which removes him beyond its reach, either for good or for evil. But such is not the character of any bodily loss which the government of Heaven inflicts on the sinful in the present existence. It is not capital, because it is not the highest that can be imposed, even in this world. The sting of a guilty conscience is a punishment far more severe and terrible than any bodily injury. It is not capitul because it does not take the culprit beyond the jurisdiction of God. It can endure but for the few years of this life. And this guilty one during life and after death, is still under the control of his Judge, and subject to any influences he may bring to bear upon him. It is not capital, because it is remedial. From any penalty, any suffering, any loss, of a bodily nature, God can bring out good to the soul. He can make it instrumental in working repentance and purification in the hearts of the guilty.

Mr. Holmes insists that men have no power to reform. The supposition that they have, he says, is against facts. He maintains that the world is in a degenerating state where Christianity does not exist, and that Africans and Indians have deteriorated from a former high condition of light and knowledge. There are some singular things connected with these assertions. If men have no power to reform, pray how can they be censured for not reforming? Moreover, with what blackness does the assertion cover the doctrine of Endless Punishment! Crush a sensient being down to endless agonies, for failing to do what he had "no power" to do!! The declaration that men have no power to reform, is absurd in every point of view. So far from being supported by "facts," there is not a fact in existence, which does not contradict it. Acknowledging that individuals and nations, under adverse circumstances may deteriorate, yet take any or all such individuals from the influence of these circumstances, place them in an intelligent and religious community-furnish them with competent teachers -and not one of them in possession of a healthy mental organization, but what would rapidly improve in all branches of mental,